Bipolar Bear ([info]doooook) wrote,
@ 2009-06-05 16:55:00
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Current location:Irvine
Current mood: chipper
Current music:Frank Zappa - Muffin Man

The Voynich Project
Ever hear of the Voynich manuscript? XKCD had a great take on it today.

Reading into it, it sounds like an amazing puzzle which likely has a solution that has daunted brilliant minds for centuries.

I propose the creation of a massively multiplayer internet project whereinwhich we cut up all the images and artifacts from the manuscript into individual items for discussion. Experts from around the globe could posit their opinions on the images from all their expertise in the world. Getting specific contexts from the images should be able to yield a lot of cultural clues as to the origins of the document. Of course I'd also like to see a rigorous scientific examination of the vellum on which it was written. Not only should we be able to get a reasonable estimate of its original date from carbon dating the paper and ink, but we should also be able to analyse the DNA from the skin to determine not only the species of the animal, but possibly also its country of origin.

With enough cultural clues, we should be able to make educated guesses about the actual language that has been written and if we can do that, then we'll be able to use our contextual information along with the grammatical structure of the underlying linguistic group and make *some* progress on translation.

As soon as we have some confirmed translation, it should be hopscotch to arrive at a complete translation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript


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[info]ex_bastard124
2009-06-06 01:49 am UTC (link)
terrible signal:noise ratio; questing after irrelevant data; tremendous leaps in logic; unsubstantiable and really quite spectacularly dumb presumptions in premise.

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[info]doooook
2009-06-07 02:52 am UTC (link)
Peer reviewed ratings of comments of various panes.

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[info]ex_bastard124
2009-06-07 07:29 am UTC (link)
peer review only works when you have a field of experts.

if i had a gambling problem and had to pick a horse, I'd say this is a gibberish reference text for use with a series of cardan grilles.

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[info]doooook
2009-06-08 06:37 pm UTC (link)
That's a very reasonable guess with the exception of one particular strategy - the purpose of cardan grilles isn't just to hide a message, but also to hide the fact that there is a message. By using an atypical language, the author has stirred up too much intrigue in the work - what's the point of a cardan grille if your subject matter is already encrypted?

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[info]ex_bastard124
2009-06-11 06:36 am UTC (link)
The argument that you would only use a system like this if you don't want people to know there's a code bears a gaping defect in logic: If you didn't want people to know there was a code you would use a cardan grille, therefore if you use a cardan grille it is because you don't want people to know there is a code. Minus 5 internet IQ test points for anyone who tripped up on that one.

Steganographic techniques can be used to add another level of security to an existing system. The grille need not be the medium, the user can be directed to the appropriate pages and letters by whatever means are available (see also: numbers stations)

On the risk of discovery, if someone is going through your books you've already aroused suspicion, you don't need to worry too much about throwing up flags. what you can do at that point is make it as difficult as possible for them to intercept and decode your communications. so you have a reference book, disguised as an exotic scientific work, of which you must both have physical posession and understanding in order to translate the messages of which you must also have physical posession. given the year in which this book appears to have been written and the lack of education in such times, the book would appear to be nothing out of the ordinary to virtually everyone. the wheeze is even more effective if the user can fairly claim to have kooky scientific texts for professional purposes, in which case a strong defence is availible even if challenged.

if this is the case, the probability of translation is of course zero :o)

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[info]doooook
2009-06-11 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Nope. I'm right and you're wrong. As I've designed bank software I'm going to call using a primitive encoding along with steganography "security through obscurity" and a big gaping fail. I would smack the shit out of a developer who wants to encrypt something twice for that same reason.

Incidentally, I've loaded the EVA encoding of Voynich into a relational database and am working out the metrics I will need to reckon the amount of rhyme and alliteration on a given page. I'm hoping to find a song, prayer, or poem as contrasted to a scientific diatribe. Showing radically changing and predictable rhyme-density will give very strong weight to the notion that the document is unencrypted.

Also, looks like there's been an internet mailing list for Voynich researchers since 1991 - what I'm talking about would be a modernized extension to that group.

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[info]ex_bastard124
2009-06-12 08:38 am UTC (link)
Nope. I'm right and you're wrong.

Of course you are petal.

As I've designed bank software I'm going to call using a primitive encoding along with steganography "security through obscurity" and a big gaping fail. I would smack the shit out of a developer who wants to encrypt something twice for that same reason.

And once again you have overlooked the most important aspect of the play.

But you're right and I'm wrong, so I don't need to bother you by telling you what it is this time. Good luck :)

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[info]cork_dork
2009-06-08 01:06 am UTC (link)
Doing an analysis of the manuscript's vellum may or may not bear fruit; a number of manuscripts are written on palimpsets (books that had the ink from a prior manuscript scraped off and a new text placed on). In that case, the original vellum may have come from far (both chronologically and geographically) from where the manuscript was penned -- books were a very portable source of wealth (a small, non-illuminated religious text would cost the equivalent of about $5,000 today. A fancy text would cost on the order of $100,000), and so they would be used as such.

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[info]doooook
2009-06-08 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Indeed, but analysis of the ink would certainly have value and the vellum may shed some clues - for example if it's from a middle eastern sheep that would tell us that it was probably recycled and probably jewish or muslim in origin whereas if it was from the 18th century we could conclude that there had been an elaborate forgery - all it can do is give additional information though I agree that information isn't entirely reliable.

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